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	<title>Comments on: Are we accountants?</title>
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		<title>By: francisdrakeprivateer</title>
		<link>http://vineliving.wordpress.com/2008/11/18/are-we-accountants/#comment-110</link>
		<dc:creator>francisdrakeprivateer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vineliving.wordpress.com/?p=152#comment-110</guid>
		<description>I seem to have heard, non stop, the mantra &quot;you mustn&#039;t judge&quot; hammered out throughout my 30 odd years as a christian. There is a correlation between accountability and judgement.

Mat 7:1  Judge not, that you may not be judged. 

This must surely be one of the bible verses most quoted by both believers and unbelievers.

However, it hides a more significant truth.

Mat 7:2  For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again. 

Mat 7:3  And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother&#039;s eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye? 
Mat 7:4  Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the splinter out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye? 

When we are considering a brother&#039;s behaviour in a way that says, &quot;he is wrong and should be (punished, challenged, made to apologise, made to repay, etc.)&quot;, we are making a LAW for that situation. It is this LAW that enables Satan to demand the right of affliction from God. 

We will have no right to say we didn&#039;t know, or understand, when we are likewise caught. The LAW that WE have cited does not have to be anything from Moses, it may be anything we consider inappropriate words or activity, even if God couldn&#039;t care less!

However, Jesus said, Mat 7:5  Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother&#039;s eye. 

From this we can see that inactivity is not the course of action that Jesus is calling for, BUT A DEALING WITH SELF FIRST. Then and only then may we consider, if it is appropriate, to talk to the other, with a merciful heart rather than a condemning one.

The saints seem to rush between one extreme and another, either doing nothing for fear of judging, or laying down legalism as to what God demands of our walk. Thankfully we have a merciful God who loved us before we ever even started to get things remotely right. 

The problem with formal accountability, is that it may become the focus of our relationship with God. However Paul (1Cor8) made it clear that what was right for one brother would not necessarily be so for another. 
It is far more important for each of us to be aware of what God thinks about us. He is more than able to make us aware when we stray.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I seem to have heard, non stop, the mantra &#8220;you mustn&#8217;t judge&#8221; hammered out throughout my 30 odd years as a christian. There is a correlation between accountability and judgement.</p>
<p>Mat 7:1  Judge not, that you may not be judged. </p>
<p>This must surely be one of the bible verses most quoted by both believers and unbelievers.</p>
<p>However, it hides a more significant truth.</p>
<p>Mat 7:2  For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again. </p>
<p>Mat 7:3  And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother&#8217;s eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?<br />
Mat 7:4  Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the splinter out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye? </p>
<p>When we are considering a brother&#8217;s behaviour in a way that says, &#8220;he is wrong and should be (punished, challenged, made to apologise, made to repay, etc.)&#8221;, we are making a LAW for that situation. It is this LAW that enables Satan to demand the right of affliction from God. </p>
<p>We will have no right to say we didn&#8217;t know, or understand, when we are likewise caught. The LAW that WE have cited does not have to be anything from Moses, it may be anything we consider inappropriate words or activity, even if God couldn&#8217;t care less!</p>
<p>However, Jesus said, Mat 7:5  Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother&#8217;s eye. </p>
<p>From this we can see that inactivity is not the course of action that Jesus is calling for, BUT A DEALING WITH SELF FIRST. Then and only then may we consider, if it is appropriate, to talk to the other, with a merciful heart rather than a condemning one.</p>
<p>The saints seem to rush between one extreme and another, either doing nothing for fear of judging, or laying down legalism as to what God demands of our walk. Thankfully we have a merciful God who loved us before we ever even started to get things remotely right. </p>
<p>The problem with formal accountability, is that it may become the focus of our relationship with God. However Paul (1Cor8) made it clear that what was right for one brother would not necessarily be so for another.<br />
It is far more important for each of us to be aware of what God thinks about us. He is more than able to make us aware when we stray.</p>
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		<title>By: mtnbke2000</title>
		<link>http://vineliving.wordpress.com/2008/11/18/are-we-accountants/#comment-104</link>
		<dc:creator>mtnbke2000</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 03:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vineliving.wordpress.com/?p=152#comment-104</guid>
		<description>Jennifer,

I don&#039;t know if you&#039;ll come back to check if I responded, but I thought I&#039;d offer one anyway.

I agree with you.  I must admit that most often I am lured into playing the devil&#039;s advocate.  One of my great weaknesses is not unpacking the good in all situations, but instead, uncovering the particularities I don&#039;t like.  And sadly, that is most often what comes out in this blog.

I do thank you for your comments.  I agree that it would be silly and even foolish of us to watch as our brothers and sisters in Christ live in perpetual sin.  I think I remember Jesus saying something about that... something along the lines of, &quot;If you cause one of these to stumble, it would be better for you to have a millstone tied around your neck...&quot;  I would then argue that we cause people to stumble by our seeming lack of concern.

I think I just have a hard time with the word accountability because I don&#039;t like the images it conjures up.

But, I do thank you.  I need good people to straighten me out every once in a while... actually, most of the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jennifer,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ll come back to check if I responded, but I thought I&#8217;d offer one anyway.</p>
<p>I agree with you.  I must admit that most often I am lured into playing the devil&#8217;s advocate.  One of my great weaknesses is not unpacking the good in all situations, but instead, uncovering the particularities I don&#8217;t like.  And sadly, that is most often what comes out in this blog.</p>
<p>I do thank you for your comments.  I agree that it would be silly and even foolish of us to watch as our brothers and sisters in Christ live in perpetual sin.  I think I remember Jesus saying something about that&#8230; something along the lines of, &#8220;If you cause one of these to stumble, it would be better for you to have a millstone tied around your neck&#8230;&#8221;  I would then argue that we cause people to stumble by our seeming lack of concern.</p>
<p>I think I just have a hard time with the word accountability because I don&#8217;t like the images it conjures up.</p>
<p>But, I do thank you.  I need good people to straighten me out every once in a while&#8230; actually, most of the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://vineliving.wordpress.com/2008/11/18/are-we-accountants/#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 00:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vineliving.wordpress.com/?p=152#comment-103</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;re being awful legalistic in your interpretation of accountability groups.  True, I see where you&#039;re coming from because of what the name suggests, but I&#039;ve been a part of several different &quot;accountability groups&quot; (although they&#039;ve never been called that,) and our groups have been all about walking together, loving each other, struggling together and celebrating.  Never have I been a part of a group that detracts points for messing up.  The point of accountability groups isn&#039;t to nullify grace, but to simply hold each other up to that which we&#039;ve been called to do- to be Christ in our respective worlds.  Grace is a huge part of these groups.  We meet each other where we&#039;re at and encourage each other to live kingdom lives.  I believe that if we don&#039;t ask each other where we&#039;re at, we&#039;re basically encouraging each other to keep on sinning.  Also, keep in mind that members of accountability groups are there because they WANT to be there.  I think it&#039;s ridiculous to question the intentions of members of accountability groups.  If anyone were actually there for the purpose of condemning their brothers, they have some big issues to answer for.

I&#039;ve seen the devastation that results from a lack of accountability.  It tears apart families and churches and ruins lives.  Of course, God still works in the midst of this.  But wouldn&#039;t it have been better for accountability to have been a part of everyday life in place of marital unfaithfulness?  

None of us are strong enough to make it on our own.  If you&#039;d rather call it something else, then call it something else.  But pleae don&#039;t discount accountability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re being awful legalistic in your interpretation of accountability groups.  True, I see where you&#8217;re coming from because of what the name suggests, but I&#8217;ve been a part of several different &#8220;accountability groups&#8221; (although they&#8217;ve never been called that,) and our groups have been all about walking together, loving each other, struggling together and celebrating.  Never have I been a part of a group that detracts points for messing up.  The point of accountability groups isn&#8217;t to nullify grace, but to simply hold each other up to that which we&#8217;ve been called to do- to be Christ in our respective worlds.  Grace is a huge part of these groups.  We meet each other where we&#8217;re at and encourage each other to live kingdom lives.  I believe that if we don&#8217;t ask each other where we&#8217;re at, we&#8217;re basically encouraging each other to keep on sinning.  Also, keep in mind that members of accountability groups are there because they WANT to be there.  I think it&#8217;s ridiculous to question the intentions of members of accountability groups.  If anyone were actually there for the purpose of condemning their brothers, they have some big issues to answer for.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen the devastation that results from a lack of accountability.  It tears apart families and churches and ruins lives.  Of course, God still works in the midst of this.  But wouldn&#8217;t it have been better for accountability to have been a part of everyday life in place of marital unfaithfulness?  </p>
<p>None of us are strong enough to make it on our own.  If you&#8217;d rather call it something else, then call it something else.  But pleae don&#8217;t discount accountability.</p>
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		<title>By: Les</title>
		<link>http://vineliving.wordpress.com/2008/11/18/are-we-accountants/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator>Les</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://vineliving.wordpress.com/?p=152#comment-102</guid>
		<description>This is a good discussion topic. The English word accountability is only used once, I believe, and it is used directly in relationship to God. It&#039;s Greek counterpart is two words hupo and dike, which literally means, under judgment. Something which it seems is only reserve for God. However, we are called to something that is likened to accountability, which is what I think most intend it today. When you consider accountability though, in my own opinion, accountability without love is legalistic judgment. In fact, accountability cannot regard self ambitious notions of lording anything over someone but must unlike Cain, understand that we are our brothers (and sisters) keepers/caretakers/etc. That is as you say, our waiting around &quot;prowl&quot;ing around waiting for people to stray from the accountability contract.&quot;

Some verses to consider…
…Romans 14.12 - &quot;So then each of you shall give account of himself to God.&quot;
…2 Corinthians 5.10 - &quot;For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may one day receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.&quot; You are so correct that ultimately our accountability is to God.
…Proverbs 27.17 – &quot;As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.&quot;
…1 Corinthians 12 – The idea of one body many parts, surely assumes a sort of care, that demands when one part is hurting that it is cared for by the others. Our care and concern is accountability.
…Hebrews 10.24 - &quot;And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.  25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another — and all the more as you see the Day approaching.&quot; Surely, this is a genuine and direct concern for matters that are destructive to one of our family.
…1 Thessalonians 5.11ff – &quot;11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing. 
  Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you.  13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other.  14 And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone.  15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else.&quot; What are notions of encouragement, warning, helping, be patient, not paying back wrong for wrong if not, loving notions of accountability.
…Matthew 18.15ff – The goal here is not judgment which separates but restoration that loves and forgives. Even in the final notion of &quot;let that one be to you as a Gentile&quot; the reference is to letting them have what they want and then to see them as those we are to love. However, this is a passage that does suggest accountability, not judgment, is a necessary part of the Christian life.
…Consider Ananias and Sapphira. Who held them to account? But who judged them in their death?
…What is Pentecost, if not accountability?
…What is the cross, if not a memory of God&#039;s account for creation?
…What is Christ, if not the mode of living and a call to the same death, which is a form of accountability?

I think we must be careful in this discussion to carefully define what we are talking about. For even love itself has been used in ways that ultimately were destructive. &quot;This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you,&quot; kind of talk. Some things under consideration above are for the most part just tips of the New Testament iceberg and does not even account for the Old Testament expectations of accountability as defined in love not apart from it. Remember Jesus words, &quot;Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” The purpose of the Law was accountability BUT it was abused by the Pharisees and lost it&#039;s luster of love and became more about power. I think you brother are an accountant, willing to die for just one sheep gone astray. That is accountability but every good thing has an abusive bad. Hence, Glory be to God in all things lest we fall into the temptation of seeing ourselves as God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a good discussion topic. The English word accountability is only used once, I believe, and it is used directly in relationship to God. It&#8217;s Greek counterpart is two words hupo and dike, which literally means, under judgment. Something which it seems is only reserve for God. However, we are called to something that is likened to accountability, which is what I think most intend it today. When you consider accountability though, in my own opinion, accountability without love is legalistic judgment. In fact, accountability cannot regard self ambitious notions of lording anything over someone but must unlike Cain, understand that we are our brothers (and sisters) keepers/caretakers/etc. That is as you say, our waiting around &#8220;prowl&#8221;ing around waiting for people to stray from the accountability contract.&#8221;</p>
<p>Some verses to consider…<br />
…Romans 14.12 &#8211; &#8220;So then each of you shall give account of himself to God.&#8221;<br />
…2 Corinthians 5.10 &#8211; &#8220;For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may one day receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.&#8221; You are so correct that ultimately our accountability is to God.<br />
…Proverbs 27.17 – &#8220;As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.&#8221;<br />
…1 Corinthians 12 – The idea of one body many parts, surely assumes a sort of care, that demands when one part is hurting that it is cared for by the others. Our care and concern is accountability.<br />
…Hebrews 10.24 &#8211; &#8220;And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.  25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another — and all the more as you see the Day approaching.&#8221; Surely, this is a genuine and direct concern for matters that are destructive to one of our family.<br />
…1 Thessalonians 5.11ff – &#8220;11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.<br />
  Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you.  13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other.  14 And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone.  15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else.&#8221; What are notions of encouragement, warning, helping, be patient, not paying back wrong for wrong if not, loving notions of accountability.<br />
…Matthew 18.15ff – The goal here is not judgment which separates but restoration that loves and forgives. Even in the final notion of &#8220;let that one be to you as a Gentile&#8221; the reference is to letting them have what they want and then to see them as those we are to love. However, this is a passage that does suggest accountability, not judgment, is a necessary part of the Christian life.<br />
…Consider Ananias and Sapphira. Who held them to account? But who judged them in their death?<br />
…What is Pentecost, if not accountability?<br />
…What is the cross, if not a memory of God&#8217;s account for creation?<br />
…What is Christ, if not the mode of living and a call to the same death, which is a form of accountability?</p>
<p>I think we must be careful in this discussion to carefully define what we are talking about. For even love itself has been used in ways that ultimately were destructive. &#8220;This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you,&#8221; kind of talk. Some things under consideration above are for the most part just tips of the New Testament iceberg and does not even account for the Old Testament expectations of accountability as defined in love not apart from it. Remember Jesus words, &#8220;Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” The purpose of the Law was accountability BUT it was abused by the Pharisees and lost it&#8217;s luster of love and became more about power. I think you brother are an accountant, willing to die for just one sheep gone astray. That is accountability but every good thing has an abusive bad. Hence, Glory be to God in all things lest we fall into the temptation of seeing ourselves as God.</p>
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